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Kinship | Leonid Sudakov: The Intersection of Humanity and Care

Updated: Dec 2, 2022

This is the Authentic Avenue podcast episode featuring Dana Marineau, Chief Marketing Officer of Rakuten, with host Adam Conner.

This is a link you can use to find Authentic Avenue, a marketing podcast hosted by Adam Conner, on Apple Podcasts. Remember to subscribe, rate, and review!

How do you enhance humanity through non-humans?

My guest today can help with that question. I'm chatting with Leonid Sudakov, the President of Kinship. Kinship is a coalition of brands seeking to bring more to pet care.

Specifically today we explore two pairs of words which have their nuances but within which Leonid sees a strong intersection as part of his work. The first, which titles this show, is humanity and care. Leonid has found that caring for pets enhances one's own humanity, and we delve into that today.

The second is authenticity and meaning. Within that, we explore the intersection in name and then get specific about how certain initiatives within Kinship's four walls like supporting female founders and its broad coalition work) helps to flesh it out in real life.

It turns out Leonid and I have a common connection here, who we chat about briefly. (That's Marc Atiyeh, the founder of Pawp, who has been supported through the Companion Fund which Leonid advises.)

Of course we also cover advice on how to carve your own path to authenticity, through which Leonid shares a personal side to how he found his. Be sure to stay tuned until the end for that.

Enjoy! Full transcript below.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW: (powered by AI; 100% accuracy not guaranteed; provided by Descript)

Adam Conner: [00:00:00] The podcast today is based on a conversation about how to enhance humanity through non-humans, which I'll get into a little bit, but first let's do the intro for this Authentic Avenue.

Kinship brands seeking to bring more to pet care today, I'm chatting with Leonid Sudakov, who's their president. And specifically today we talk about the intersection of a few things, specifically two pairs of words, which have their nuances, but within which Leonid sees a strong. Intersection as part of his work, the first, which titles, this show, his humanity and care, he's found that caring for pets enhances one's own humanity.

And so we dove into that today. And the second of course is authenticity because it's me and meaning within that, we explore the intersection in name and then get specific about how certain initiatives within Kinships four walls like supporting female founders and it's broad coalition work helps to flesh it out in real life.

It turns out. We also talk about a common connection of ours, who we have both interacted with in our professional lives. So tune in for that, as well as the final section of the show today, in which we talk about advice to curve your own path to authenticity, but especially within which lit it shares a personal side to how he found his.

I really enjoyed the conversation today. I think you will too. And my God, if this is not another feather in my cap to go out and get a dog, I don't know what. Is, but I'll let you hear it for yourself now. So sit back, relax, and maybe pet your own dog and listen in as I get real with Kinship and Leonid, Sudakov.

Hey Leonid, how are you?

Leonid Sudakov: [00:01:35] Very good.

Adam Conner: [00:01:36] It's a pleasure to meet you. And I would love to learn a little bit more about Kinship of course, from the very top, because it seems like I've talked to some organizations before that began as part of another and then spun out. I just love to know a little bit about your story through that time and becoming part of the founding team at Kinship, which would help illustrate that for me and for the audience a little bit.

Leonid Sudakov: [00:01:57] Yeah, absolutely. So I've been. Um, in S uh, four or 12 years right now. And, and Mars has been in pet space since 1936. So we're sick, you know, 80 years. And, um, it's, it's some point where, you know, we really started to reflect what is, what, what is obviously happening with the, the category that mark has been needing over a debt over the decades.

And, um, I came, came into the pet care space. Uh, in 2013, so eight years ago now, and, uh, um, have been a chief marketing officer of Mars pet care. Um, and through the work that we S we, we started doing on the, on the future of the pet industry and the generational change that is happening. Um, in the population of pet parents and, uh, and the relationship, uh, they have with their pets that is changing, it became clear that there is an opportunity for, um, a different type of a business to be created, uh, a business that's built and built on the beginning from, uh, in the beginning from, um, becoming a partner of choice for industry disruptors for everyone who has.

An idea for this industry and for solving the pain points that this new generation of pet parents wanted to solve. And so for us, this kind of gave an impetus to create, uh, Kinship as a, as a standalone business. And obviously for me to come in and run it, um, very much with the, with the phone focus on solving the pain points of the new generation of pet parents and, um, with a vision of.

Um, uh, creating a level of experience for everyone who owns a pet, uh, so strong and so positive that they will open heartedly, recommend it to everybody else. And we know that, um, The more we do that. The more we open people's eyes to the benefits of federal ownership and we more, uh, we help them and make it as easy as joyful and as a wireless as possible.

Um, the more humanity we'll bring into the world and the war, the more we will, we will prove that the world that cares is a, is a world is a better world for all.

Adam Conner: [00:04:19] I appreciate that explanation. I'm curious a little bit about the relationship specifically in the transition from Mars to Kinship. The reason why I'm curious about it is because sometimes when I talk to, uh, groups like this, and by that, I mean, uh, perhaps businesses that were first incubated and then spun out, it makes me wonder how much, uh, autonomy that you have given the fact that you're also linked to this enormous, enormous business.

Now, granted. You were part of the leadership of that business. So my guess is that there's quite a bit of autonomy here because they trust you and they know what you're doing, but I'm just curious as to, does it make it more comfortable to build up a business like Kinship from the ground up within the umbrella of the larger Mars family?

Or are you trying to approach it as if it were brand new with no such support?

Leonid Sudakov: [00:05:05] You know I've been in many businesses during my career and, you know, All over the world. And, and one thing that I think helps in this, um, uh, in this specific example is the fact that Mars is not just a company like any other. It's a, it's a private business and it's a family owned business.

And, and in a way it's a business that because of this, this its nature is a very much a long-term. Focus purpose led business. And so as it regards to pet care, all the multitude of this, you know, different parts of, of Mars pet care are all, um, United by a single purpose of, uh, uh, creating a better world for pets.

And so the fact that we are building a technology and, uh, and business innovation like to fit. Um, uh, into a much broader context of, of Mars, but with a very specific ask of, uh, um, you know, that the business model like ours requires, it allowed us exactly the right, um, uh, level of freedom, but you know, a very deep sense of, uh, strategic alignment that is required to, to, to keep, to be going and to keep going with enough.

Um, tailwinds from, uh, from, uh, being part of a much bigger company, but without the headwinds of bureaucracy, uh, um, uh, layers in the organization, uh, to get, to get to act on the things that we believe are essential.

Adam Conner: [00:06:48] So I want to get into that a little bit, uh, in the next few questions about making a better world for all a better world for pets.

I mean, it's very clear if you go onto your, your home page, the world, that cares that is that's the priority. There are a bunch of building blocks to get to that better world and it all starts internally. It all starts with you in the founding team. And now the team that you've been able to build. So I'm going to talk about two pairs of terms and I'd like to have you compare them.

Or contrast them, um, in how you look at them. The first two are the word that I like to approach on this show authenticity and how it combines with what you might consider as the word, meaning what it means broadly to you. And then I want to get into the idea of humanity and how that stands by, you know, canine world.

But let's start with that. How do you compare being authentic with having meaning.

Leonid Sudakov: [00:07:41] Yeah, I think it's, it's a great question. I think, and that was a question that we had to, um, answer very clearly because for a while, Kinship has really been a promise and above all, this has been a promise to potential associates that we had to convince an excite to come and join us on this journey and, you know, building a very, very different business.

Um, within kind of a more, a more traditional business model required that we four times out of five, we need to attract talent from the outside because the type of capabilities we need are very, very new to Mars and very different to what, uh, Mars historically had to rely on. And so we needed to offer.

Uh, you know, uh, meaningful, uh, journey for anyone who would, who would join us. And so the idea of meaning is very, is very important. And obviously in our case, it's linked to the purpose that, uh, um, that we have in every kind of, uh, you know, read a guide, right. Uh, we do. And, uh, you know, for us providing a, a meaningful experience linked to the fact that, uh, We believe, um, a world that cares, uh, is a better world for all.

We believe that, um, peds do bring, um, humanity in this world and in fun way, uh, um, You know, pets actually make humans more human because of the relationship of, uh, of care, uh, that pure care that you built, you built with, uh, um, uh, with, uh, you know, an animal that inherently is so, so different from you. And so in many ways, obviously we have a lot of data behind the, you know, what the, uh, pet ownership brings in terms of specific.

Uh, health benefits and the feelings of social cohesion. But I think beyond that, what was in our case incredibly important, uh, was that our, our associates, our partners and the people that we attracted into this kin, um, found meaning in it found personal meaning in it. And so from that, you know what, take it one step further.

And Kinship becoming an authentic enterprise and an enterprise that is really living. Um, you know, what we, what we talk about and living what, uh, what we, um, uh, what we believe in, um, is built on this idea of a meaningful journey for every person, uh, that, that works for us and every partner that we work with.

And I found. Um, and the journey. And as I said, I told you four times out of five, we had to, we had to bring new people that wouldn't otherwise work for Mars, uh, onto this journey. Uh, th this being moved so lucky about being in this category, that is so full of meaning because it's built on love because it's built on care because it's built on humanity has been a massive advantage for us.

Adam Conner: [00:10:54] This journey is the next thing then I want to ask about, because it's, it's so broad, but it, it touches on this other pair of terms. And I know you've talked about it for a second, and I know you suggested there's a bunch of data to back it up, but if you'll allow me to be, uh, one of the pillars of your own culture, which has to be purposefully inquisitive about this, I'm curious about the intersection of that humanity and the care that you describe specifically, what are some of the most surprising founding, uh, findings or what have you found generally that reflects that showing care for a non-human.

Enhances one's own humanity. I find that fascinating.

Leonid Sudakov: [00:11:32] Yeah. So, so, you know, you know, probably the biggest, um, uh, opportunities to see just the reality of the impact that pets have in human lives is when you look. Um, uh, at the pub, you know, specific populations at risk. And if you look at children and you look at the elderly, so some of the things that we've been able to, to, to discover, and Maurice has for over five years, ran a partnership with national institutes of health in the U S to really understand, um, uh, you know, detail, you know, the reality of the human eye and our interaction in the pet ownership sense.

And one of the things that we've discovered was. The impact pets have, uh, on the, uh, development of children and on and on, on really, uh, young children learning, um, uh, how to care for another. Uh, children seeing a lot more, um, uh, you know, opportunities to integrate, especially children who, who, uh, have issues otherwise to, to great into, into today's society, feeling much more part of it.

So, so there's a lot of work that's been happening. Um, uh, in the area of, uh, in the area of, uh, uh, uh, young age development and on the other opposite side of it, the, uh, the feeling of social, social isolation for the elderly. And if you think about the companionship, uh, that pets provide for many, many pet owners, uh, in of the advanced age, It's it's, it was incredible to just have it, have it, uh, confirmed scientifically and see how much this, um, uh, feeling of social isolation has been solved because of the companionships that, uh, uh, that pets provide.

And then in between, there's obviously a massive. Um, uh, a massive, um, uh, majority of the adult population for whom we've seen the, the social cohesion and it's, you know, really be reinforced and, and that concerns, um, uh, feeding off of community, being part of community in the neighborhoods where you have pets and where you see people walking, their dogs.

Uh, feeling integrated and, uh, with, with your neighbors. And so it's, it's really across the board. Uh, and we we've seen that, uh, um, you know, in many studies that we've done and also in, in, in the studies that others done in this space, and it's just been incredible to confirm the subjective experience we all have as pet parents.

Uh, with, with a huge strength of that suggesting, uh, subjective experience with real science data, you know, I'll tell you last year we would just run, uh, run a, a pet parent report, uh, where we asked, um, um, um, Pet owners in the us about their experience during COVID, uh, in 2020, and over 70% of, uh, of the U S pet owners talked about the fact that they wouldn't have been able to survive, um, the confinement in the COVID situation, uh, without having their pet with them.

And then you get into a debate of how statistically valid the data point. Is that, what does it actually mean? The reality of this? What is important is the strength of this subjective experience and, and, you know, the very objective outcome of, uh, uh, we've seen in, uh, in health and wellbeing that, that results in, so people.

Do feel, um, uh, that pets, you know, are a critical part of their close environment and, and what we call the social circle, uh, that, uh, allows us to, um, to exist in this world. And in very, in, in, in a lot of cases, pets are the intermediate, uh, between, uh, between us and the external world around us.

Adam Conner: [00:15:36] Absolutely.

There's so many. I mean, I know that for sure. Like, I don't need to have, I don't need to be 24 7 in the pet world to know that. And unfortunately I don't have a pet of any kind or now, which is, which is too bad because I think especially this year or this let's say this past year, right. Um, that would have been an incredible, um, help for anyone.

I think men mental, mental health has been coming to the forefront and that is certainly an area where. Uh, furry friend can help. So, uh, thank you for explaining more on that. And I'm glad that you've thought extensively about this. Uh, of course, it's, it's not hard to see all the areas in which you've developed just by looking at the, the Kinship family.

And I've heard so many things about, uh, different areas of the pet experience, whichever and built out for whatever reason, you know, what I've been hearing like very, very recently pet insurance. I never even heard of that before. And all of a sudden now it just seems to be like the hot thing. No, I don't know.

Uh, you know, uh, do you, have you guys thought about you guys do much work there? I'm curious.

Leonid Sudakov: [00:16:35] Well we partner, you know, interestingly enough, we partner, um, uh, with quite a few insurance players, uh, to help them and, and help take this whole industry off the ground. Uh, we believe that insurance is in, is, it is a real important part of, uh, uh, Successful pet ownership and in the U S there's a massive opportunity because the penetration of insurance has historically been quite, quite low.

And there's quite a few players that are trying to crack that challenge and create the new, this new industry in the U S. And one of the things that we are engaged on is through some of our data businesses. Um, so whistled, for example, which is our connected car business, which provides. 24 7 a data stream of, uh, behavior of the, of the pet pets behavior, uh, to you, um, basically indicating of their specific risks or something is going wrong or, uh, with, with your pet.

Um, uh, and what we found is, uh, you know, using that data, um, can help. Uh, find their, you know, develop new propositions around insurance, uh, that would make our partners, um, even more successful in, uh, supporting pet parents, uh, and hopefully lower the premiums for the, for the pet parents who have, uh, uh, healthier pets so that more people can afford, uh, insurance so that the premiums are much more informed and built on real data.

And so we really. In our, in our ecosystem, you're really continuously look for partners, um, to help advance a much broader agenda of, uh, innovation in this, in this industry. And I think it goes back to kind of the way that we started. So the first thing that we, we, we said when we launched Kinship, was that we want to become a partner of choice.

For those who have a dream for this industry versus trying to invent it ourselves. And this idea of being a partner and being a partner of choice is very much at the heart of, uh, um, of what we do. And through a lot of our venture tools, we're able to support dozens and dozens of, um, different startups.

Um, uh, and initiatives in the, in the independent innovation space. And so insurance is definitely one of the areas where we, we partner, we partner quite a lot. Yeah.

Adam Conner: [00:19:06] I was curious about that because, uh, personally for me and listeners, maybe we'll have this conversation, it down the road. Um, I had met somebody who I went to school with who had been a longest time, had been in FinTech.

And then recently in the last two years had started a business in pets. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. Wonder why I did that anyway. You'll know his name is Marc. And he founded Pawp.

Leonid Sudakov: [00:19:29] Oh yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I know. I know Marc very well.

Adam Conner: [00:19:32] Yeah. It just, and he was like the first step, the, and I'll put his information into our show notes folks, just so you know who the heck I'm talking about.

So you're not totally lost here. I had heard it first for me. I was like, oh, pensions. That's kind of. Two years ago, I was like, huh. And he w he wasn't doing that exactly two years ago, but he pivoted to it. It seemed, and I was like, oh, that's a little weird.

Leonid Sudakov: [00:19:53] I think his business is very much built on this premise of how can you make a higher level of care accessible to the biggest number of pet parents.

Adam Conner: [00:20:02] Right. So that, anyway, that that was something that I was glad to see in my research. I was like, oh, I wonder if. I wonder if he knows mark and then, boom, it's not hard to go, go right over to, I think I found it on the companion fund. Um, but anyway, so I'm glad you're continuing to think about that. All right.

So th this is perhaps a good transition then, because my next question does, does really factually my next two questions. The questions that I tend to round that with focus on the, a word that I focus on authenticity. I always ask. What the specific avenues are that every business has through which they believe they reflect and shine when it comes to being authentic.

And in our lead up to this, and know, we talked a lot about the coalition work. We talked a lot about promoting female founders, and I'd just love to have you illustrate that a little bit, because I know that every business and indeed every person carved their own avenues to authenticity. This is a specific way in which you do.

And I'd, I'd love to learn more.

Leonid Sudakov: [00:20:54] Yeah, I think it's a, it's a, it's a great, really great question. And so the beauty of starting the business from scratch. Even in the context of a, of a, of a bigger enterprise, but it is that you have an opportunity to decide what you want to be. No one has decided to before you.

And so for us, a couple of things were important from day. One. One is really alignment to this Marsha's purpose of building a better world for pets. And that was a big part of, uh, Kind of a real authentic why we do what we do. But the other thing, culturally for us has been this idea of being open to all.

And so this, this beating heart of diversity at the, at the, at the very center of Kinship, and there are few things that kind of led to that and made it an authentic part of who we are. One is, um, The fact that pets fundamentally don't see any difference. You can be white, you can be, uh, you can be black.

You can be, uh, uh, any gender or no gender at all. Pets will love you, uh, for, for what you are. Uh, the idea of Kinship fundamentally has been this idea of, uh, of a United kin that's that want to repay for what pets bring to our world. And so it was only natural for us to then to then say, um, it it's, it's, it's important that we represent that in, um, in, in who we hire in, in, in the type of teams we build.

And who we support, uh, um, in, on, on our journey. And so obviously contrast that with kind of a typical, um, early stage business, especially in tech business statistics around female founders or venture capital that goes to female founders, not to talk about the, uh, obviously BiPAP, uh, uh, founders. And so it became clear for us that both.

In our venture efforts and our recruitment efforts and our company building efforts, it was, it was important to make a real authentic moves that kind of live up to this top belief we have so that, you know, we, we, we are, we are a company full of meaning for everybody that works for us and, uh, and engages with us.

And so for us, from the very beginning, the, um, you know, creating this. Um, a very diverse organization. We always talk about this rainbow creative rainbow at the heart of, at the heart of Kinship. And so that obviously became very important for us both in terms of gender diversity. So our leadership team is, you know, perfectly gender, gender diverse.

Our population is, is, is the same, but also in terms of our broader outreach. Efforts, um, both with an eye of potential potentials associates or partners. And so, hence we kind of went and tackled it from, uh, the standpoint of our leap accelerator startup accelerator, where for the first time in the industry, we ran dedicated, uh, programs first for female founders, uh, two years ago.

And then last year for female and BiPAP founders. Um, to, to truly, um, open up more rooms where some of his founders can actually bring their, their ideas forward and really give them an opportunity and support that they need in, uh, in this world. And then, uh, on the, uh, associate side for us, there's been quite a lot of work that has been done throughout the organization, by our employees, uh, to really live this, uh, Uh, this mission of ours.

And so we've created our first paid internship program that we've launched. Uh, earlier this year where, you know, we really try to bring, um, undergrad students, uh, looking for their first jobs from different communities from around the states, uh, you know, that represent a much broader, a much more diverse.

Uh, potential employee population, then, then just kind of what would normally be, be able to hire, uh, in New York or San Francisco or Portland. So, you know, there's, there's quite a lot of examples that naturally because of how, how integrated this belief, as in, in what tension is kind of naturally come to, um, come to life, come to fruition and, and are executed across everything we do.

Adam Conner: [00:25:33] Yeah, that's wonderful to hear. And it's, it's clear that, you know, you, you are investing in each of these important causes and into these people, um, no matter who they are, but I'm certainly glad that that you're doing it. You know, whether it be from people's stories, getting out in their careers via internships to people starting their own businesses to founders, it was actually through a female founder that I was working for, that I, that I met, uh, mark in the pop team.

So, you know, that's, it's great to be. Continually supporting that in any way that you can glad to know that it is a way in which you shine as authentic. And that's where the last question resides today. It's sort of an advice column that I position for my listeners. Many of whom are either brand voters of themselves.

So working to create the next big thing. Or just starting their careers. And of course there are many in the chief marketing officer world, regardless, everybody is on this lifelong journey to develop their own avenues, to authenticity, whatever that means to them. However, they define the words that surround it.

And we've defined a few of those words today. And so, given your experience about how you've been able to carve those avenues for yourself across a global journey, leading brands that everybody would know, and including your time now at Kinship, What sort of advice would you have for our listeners on how to create their own personal truth and their own avenue to authenticity?

I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

Leonid Sudakov: [00:27:03] Think it's a, it's a, it's a question that you need to keep answering all your, all your life. I think, you know, we've, we've talked about meaning earlier in this conversation and finding your personal meaning. Um, is an essential part of anyone's professional path. And, and I think in a world where we want more from our work than, than, than the paycheck at the end of the month, we want more from the people that surround us, um, in our work.

Um, I think it requires, it requires, you know, a real deep understanding. Um, of, of who we are and in a way, finding this personal meaning, um, is, is always the first step to, um, to be able to be authentic with others. And I think in my personal journey, you know, I've, it's taken me a while. I've really worked hard at it.

And obviously, um, uh, you know, trying to, to. To build what in the beginning was quite a traditional corporate career. Um, uh, you know, and kind of trying to figure out which part of me can come to life in the, in the corporate context has been a struggle for a while. And so, um, I, my hope is that those who are very beginning of their careers will get to it faster.

It took me. Um, you know, quite a few years to, to be, um, to really find that meaning and to be, uh, fully myself, uh, at work. And I'm, I'm thinking now, um, the break for me came probably in the late twenties, maybe very early thirties. And I still remember, uh, being able to come out at work, uh, as has been such a massive.

A massive challenge. And it, you know, I ended up waiting until I had a boss who, um, was Danish, who didn't care and who was, you know, who came from a, an environment of freedom of mental freedom that kind of, you know, that, that liberated liberated me in a way. And so, um, uh, short-circuiting some of this. Um, some of this, um, uh, journey I think would have been an advice that I would have given myself, um, uh, 25 years ago.

Um, so that's one, I think the second one thing that is important, um, I find is not to fall in what they call the, um, likability conundrum. And so a lot of times, obviously it's only natural for us, uh, to want to be liked. And a lot of, a lot of these words are used, especially when we talk about female leaders and, and women trying to, uh, um, uh, to grow professionally and trying to figure out the way that they're expected, uh, to come across as leaders and a lot of them trying to navigate the traditional image we have of where, of a, of a woman and an image of a leader or a boss that that comes from, you know, decades and decades.

Uh, of, um, of that title being reserved only to men. And so this, this idea of, um, you know, really owning, uh, all the shapes of, uh, of, uh, of what makes you, you and not settling for, um, uh, solving for somebody, uh, you know, likable image. Is is a very important is, is a very important part of the journey. And I think it's linked again to you finding your, you know, your, in your gut, this, this deeper meaning of, uh, uh, what makes you, you, so those are probably the two aspects that I've seen, um, that I've seen that are, that are.

I've interest here. One is you're really investing in anchoring your personal meaning for yourself and then, um, drawing, um, uh, your experience from that versus, uh, the need to be liked by others.

Adam Conner: [00:31:21] I think that's important as well. And I'm glad that with time, corporate environments have been made to make employees feel more comfortable with a couple of things with being true about themselves, who they are.

And, and also maybe in management styles with focusing more on the outcomes and the results of things, maybe then than being necessarily liked by everybody being a people pleaser. Cause you're never going to be able to do that. And that was something that it took me a little while as well. You know, I'm, I'm currently in my late twenties, so I have a lot to learn clearly, but something that I have learned is that I, I went from, you know, I think trying, trying to be the person that everybody liked well and had, oh, I can just sort of like charm way to like, look, that's not always going to be the case.

Uh, you know, I, hello, I'm doing a podcast right now that talks about how some brands are authentic. I'm purposely not talking to some businesses because I, I don't think that they are, and I know that it doesn't please them, you know, but that's something that's taken me time to be okay with because there's such a.

Personal struggle between like, God, if I'm not liked by everybody, am I going to be successful? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'm glad that you have found that and that that's advice that you give and listeners, I would encourage you to, to think about these things as, as you make your way, whether it's in your own business and you're trying to woo clients, or whether it's building up a business that you, that you work for and you're, and you're trying to do well for, for your leaders.

Uh, in both cases and in all cases, uh, Leanna, I really appreciate your expertise here, your stories, your definitions, for those words, how they compare, uh, and, and your leadership to help the world become a better place through, uh, pet ownership and, and making people, uh, collectively a world that cares. I'm really glad to have had the time.

And thank you so much for coming on.

Leonid Sudakov: [00:33:09] Thanks, Adam. Pleasure.

Adam Conner: [00:33:12] I really would take that last piece of advice to heart. It's easy to be enamored with a job opportunity because of, I would say superficial, but, but let's say your baseline stats like pay and title and things like that, but really what you should look for too, is places where you can be your self.

And I'm glad that so many businesses have become more inclusive over time. But maybe it's something that you should hold in slightly higher priority for yourself. I know that I've done that before and it might help you become your more authentic self. So thank you Linda for that. And thank you to the listener for tuning in.

If you want to keep on tuning in, here's what you do. You go over to iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts, you subscribe to this show, maybe leave a rating and review if you fancy and then find me on LinkedIn, Adam Conner and Authentic Avenue. Of course, there's a page there for that as well, where our community.

Lives. Finally, if you or your business has been thinking about getting into podcasts in some way, hit me up. I know a lot about it and can be helpful, whether it's just a brand build to get leads for business or to do other things. I can be a resource. And if you want to do that, is a great email to start with.

I'll sign off now until next week. But in the meantime, I've been Adam Conner telling you that until I get real again with you. Thanks for taking a walk with me down Authentic Avenue.


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